5e '24 vs '14 - Grapple and Shove

TTRPG General D&D (All Editions)
1

Splitting this into two parts:

Grappling

PHB14 (p. 195) has a few paragraphs detailing how grapples used to work, as well as several restrictions on how they couldn’t work. It stipulates that the attacker has to have one free hand, that the target can only be a single size larger than the attacker, and the target has to be within the attacker’s reach. The attempted grappler uses their Attack action (consuming one of their multi-attacks in the process) and the attacker and target make contested rolls to determine whether the attempt is successful.

The '24 PHB changes a few things up. First of all, it - confusingly - splits the rules across two different Glossary entries 10 pages apart (p. 367, 377).
Page 367 (Glossary entry: “Grappling”) specifies that the attacker attempting a grapple makes an Unarmed Strike with whatever body part it has appropriate to the task, and that escaping the grapple requires using an Action to make an Ability Check (Strength or Dexterity). Later in the Glossary, the “Unarmed Strike” (p. 377) entry explains that resisting the grapple attempt is no longer a contested roll, but that the target makes a saving throw, their choice of Strength or Dexterity, at DC 8 + the attacker’s Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. Size and available appendage restrictions remain.

There are a some interesting wrinkles here. First off, PHB24’s “Unarmed Strike” entry generally states that a hit inflicts damage equal to 1 + the attacker’s Strength modifier - and grapples are not explicitly excluded from this! If this is indeed the case (Edit: it’s not, I just missed it), then it seems foolish not to exploit this nearly all of the time and just make every unarmed attack a grapple attempt.
The text also specifies that avoiding the initial grapple is a saving throw, but attempts to escape a grapple are an ability check - this is a bit of an awkward phase-change; it is logical, but not at all intuitive so it will absolutely lead to the wrong ruling in play.

That covers the mechanics, but the condition itself has some changes, too. Appendix A: Conditions (PHB14, p. 290) details the previous condition, and the PHB24 Glossary (p. 367) has the updated terms. The change here can be tricky to parse because '14 lists some mechanics covered elsewhere, but it amounts to this: a grappled creature has Disadvantage on attacks against anything other than its grappler.
Lastly, PHB14 stipulated that the grappler’s “speed is halved”, while PHB24 says “every foot of movement costs…1 extra foot” based on the size differential. Both books agree that this penalty doesn’t apply to when the grappler is two sizes larger than the target, but PHB24 goes a (half) step further and negates any movement penalty when the target is Tiny.

Shove

Thankfully this section is less involved. PHB14 (pp. 195-196) employed the contested roll approach and PHB24 (p. 367) makes this a saving throw instead. As with grapple, PHB24 appears to apply damage to the shoving attack. Technically speaking, PHB24 also imposes the Prone condition, but this is not functionally different that PHB14’s “knock the target prone” language.

2

As noted in our text thread there was pretty deep discussion re: Grapple 2024 as applied to monks specifically.

I have not seen any widespread interpretation that you can make grapple and do the damage from an unarmed strike per the PHB’s weird wording. If that were the case why does Grappler still exist as a feat? Quoted from '24 PHB, Chapter 5 - Feats

“Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use both the Damage and the Grapple option. You can use this benefit only once per turn.”

So if it was WoC’s intention to allow anyone making an unarmed strike to both dmg and grapple why would they give this ability as a bonus to Grappler’s or even specify they can only do it once per turn?

With Elemental subclass Monks the grapple becomes a very interesting discussion because elemental monks get 15 foot reach (assuming humanoid, no weapon) with those elemental attacks. If they grapple with the elemental attack, are they holding the creature at the 15 foot distance, out of melee? I have read about table rulings that the grapple would be pulled toward the monk, others it is held at range. Holding two enemies out of melee range in a grapple seems pretty stretching of logic but then again this is DnD.

3

Ah! I think I see a resolution to the “does grapple damage?” question, and I’m a little chagrined that I missed it:

The “Unarmed Strike” entry (p. 377, PHB24) defines it as “…using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet…” and goes on to say “…choose one of the following…”

So I just completely missed that the grapple and shove don’t also do damage :man_facepalming:

4

As far as your Warrior of the Elements goes, here’s my read:

PHB24 (p. 106) states that the level 3 class feat Elemental Attunement makes it so that:

“When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.”

Where some folks might get tripped up is with the Glossary definition of Unarmed Strike (p. 377) explicitly stating “…a target within 5 feet of you.”
This is a case of the specific rule overriding the general: the Monk subclass feat is a more specific rule than the general convention of the reach of an Unarmed Strike, so the Warrior of the Elements has a reach of at least 10 feet for the purposes of an Unarmed Strike (Ruling 1).

The necessary preconditions for Grapple are:

  • Successfully make an Unarmed Strike as part of an Attack Action
  • Target must not be more than 1 size larger than attacker
  • Attacker must have an appendage available to maintain a hold on the target

So…

  1. An Unarmed Strike is able to be performed at a maximum range equal to the attacker’s reach
  2. A Warrior of the Elements has a reach of at least 10 feet for Unarmed Strike (provided a Focus Point has been used to imbue the warrior with elemental energy)
  3. Therefore, a Warrior of the Elements is capable of making an Unarmed Strike from at least 10 feet away from its target

Provided that all of the following are true:
a) the target is not more than 1 size larger
b) the Warrior of the Elements has at least one hand free with which to make an Unarmed Strike
c) the Warrior of the Elements is imbued with elemental energy
then the Warrior of the Elements would be capable of imposing the Grappled condition on a target from a distance of at least 10 feet away, using the “elemental energy [that] extends from you” as the bodily appendage that holds the target (Ruling 2)

The question that remains is whether the Warrior of the Elements is able to maintain the Grappled condition on their target for subsequent rounds, or if they would need to re-apply it each round. There is no clear statement of intent or rule on this specific question, so it is a matter of a table ruling until it is clarified, and different GMs will rule differently.

Here is the argument I endorse:
The Glossary entry for Grappling (p. 367) lists the conditions for escaping a grapple, one of which is

“…the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.”

The “grapple’s range” is equal to the grappler’s Unarmed Strike reach, and the Warrior of the Elements may increase their Unarmed Strike reach by 10 feet (with the added flavor of “elemental energy extends from you”), so a target within the Warrior’s reach would be a legal target for a grapple regardless of its current conditions: the Grappled condition is allowed to persist unless another of the terminating conditions is satisfied (grappler choice, grappler Incapacited, distance between them exceeded).

5

But you raise an even more interesting and potentially contentious question:

If we allow that the Warrior of the Elements is capable of grappling a target from 15 feet away: what happens when someone shoves the grappled target (or the grappler) off the rain-slicked precipice they are standing on the very edge of?

Since the grappler may freely drop the grapple at any time, they could presumably do so and avoid being dragged over the edge in the event the target is shoved away.

What happens if the grappler is the one shoved, or Thunderwaved, or otherwise moved forcibly without applying Incapacitated?

Would it be possible for a creature to interpose between the grappler and the target?

Look at the madness you’ve unleashed!

6

15 ft radius of threat feels crazy, pair that with something a feat like Sentinel or Grappler (or if you are intending to torture your DM-both) things get very interesting.

I would argue the wording of dropping grapple at will would allow the grappelee to fall while the grappeler releases in your first scenario.

My take is that the grapple would be maintained at the 15 foot extended range, surmising that the grapple was maintained by the elemental forces. If the forces would drop (incapacitation) then the grapplee would be free as well.

I am with you on where it gets weird if the grappler gets shoved/pushed away etc. If I were sitting behind the screen I would probably use the below to allow the grappler to continue the grapple and move the grapplee with them.

The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it.

I would think they are covering intentional and unintentional movement here. Thus shoving the grappler to try to get the grapplee out of range would not be that effective of a strategy. A player wishing to help get the grapplee loose is probably better served with help action on the subsequent ability check to get ungrappled.

7

All of this complexity should be context for why Tello’s '24 rebuild went a different direction with weapon mastery/quarterstaff to get topple with a really high DC.

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8

I just have to ask it every time it comes up - why would anyone optimize for combat when they know I’m GM’ing?

I mean, even if the combat were a tremendous technical challenge, does anyone actually believe that I’m going to succeed at implementing it?

9

We can RP the characters all day, but when the fight happens one should be prepared and capable.

Also you do remember showing us the stack of monster stat blocks you had in your hands last session right?

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10

Those were for six level 10s and a level 7!

11

I disagree on this point:

“Thus shoving the grappler to try to get the grapplee out of range would not be that effective of a strategy.”

The RAW makes it a point that “the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler” may change such that it “exceeds the grapples range” and the example is given, albeit in PHB14, that a Thunderwave spell may move the grappler independently of the grappled target. That example doesn’t appear in '24, unfortunately, but it also doesn’t stipulate that such a spell’s effect must originate from the grappled target, nor does it say that the grappled target is fixed under the grappler’s power.

In that light, my argument would be that a grappler is susceptible to forced movement independently of their grappled targets.

There’s also nothing that says a grappler cannot be the target of a grapple, just that they would need to save against it. So now I’m imagining a scenario where there’s just a long chain of grapples happening tug-of-war style; this probably involves a giant octopus using its tentacles to grapple both a grappler and a grapplee at once.

12

If i was behind the screen your logic is sound enough i would probably agree in the heat of the moment.

I have a problem though with the logical consistency. If I had a dude in a headlock and was shoved involuntarily - the person in the headlock moves with me. I guess the split the difference ruling might be give the grapplee a chance to escape with adv on the STR or DEX check when the shove occurs even though that is just making stuff up.

13

Oh, I would absolutely accept either approach - if a player says they want to help break the grapple, then they’re taking the Help Action; if they want to forcibly move one of the participants in a grapple, then that’s also valid to try.

Both are reasonable enough that they don’t violate the DMG24 guidance on page 19:

“Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the lawys of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.”

“I saw it on pro wrestling” is ample justification to me!

14

Here’s another possible way to reconcile it, h/t to @Bork_N_Beans for bringing me back to it

The Grappled condition makes its subject “movable” by the grappler in the following way:

“The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it.”

Let’s establish a hypothetical de minimis scenario with two combatants of Medium size named “Gary” and “Thierry.”

Gary grapples Thierry, imposing on him the Grappled condition. Thierry makes an Unarmed Strike against Gary and decides to use the Shove effect of that attack in order to move Gary 5 feet away. Gary fails his saving throw and a distance of 5 feet is opened between the two combatants. Since two Medium creatures cannot occupy the same space at the end of any turn, the grappling pair occupies a space 10’x5’, with each combatant in adjacent 5’x5’ spaces; the Shove moves Gary 5’ away, creating a same-sized gap between them.

This may not be the end of the activity, though! Gary had used 10 of his 30 feet of Speed to approach and grapple Thierry, ending his turn with 20 feet of Speed. This pool of remaining Speed is available for exploitation by the effects of spells like Dissonant Whispers, so it is established as a tracked value that can be used.

Referring to the “movable” effect of the Grappled condition, Gary is able to drag or carry Thierry when Gary moves. Thierry used a Shove to push Gary 5’ away. Gary did not use any Speed when he was moved, and because Gary is able to move Thierry when he moves, Gary is able to use his remaining Speed to drag or carry Thierry with him at a cost of 1 foot per foot in excess of the Speed Gary used in the movement. Dragging Thierry the 5 feet Gary was moved will cost Gary 5 feet of his remaining 20 Speed and the grapple is maintained.

If, however, Gary had only 10’ of Speed remaining and Thierry had cast Gust of Wind in order to move Gary 15’ away, Gary would lack enough remaining Speed to drag Thierry the full 15’. Gary could expend his remaining 10’ of Speed to drag Thierry 10’, resulting in a 5’ distance between the two that exceeds Gary’s reach and causes the Grappled condition to drop from Thierry.

15

I’ll buy that!

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